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Wedding Deposits – 1 Hour Q&A Webinar w/ Attorney Rami Hayre

Summary

Below is a full transcript of our podcast episode, titled Wedding Deposits – 1 Hour Q&A Webinar w/ Attorney Rami Hayre. The episode was hosted by PlanEvents.ca, and our guest was attorney Raminder Hayre (a.k.a. Rami Hay). Scroll down to see the transcript and/or listen to the episode here.

Transcript

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 00:03

Welcome everybody. My name is Kamran, some you might recognize my name, if we’ve talked many of these social media platforms on Facebook as such, I want to spend the next five minutes giving an overview, but we’ll cover an agenda, spend about 45 minutes going through the questions that a lot of you have already shared beforehand. And then at the end, we’ll kind of have 10 minutes to do fireside open q&a. So let’s go ahead and get going. So just general disclaimer, the contents of this video/audio zoom meeting shouldn’t be taken as legal advice. This is really meant to be for informational purposes to help folks understand what their options are, so that they can kind of do what works best for them. Some additional context. You know, my name is Kamran, I am using, like, I actually have a platform I support with a couple of my teammates who are also on this call. And that’s the platform through which we’re hosting this event. That platform is called PlanEvents.ca. And it’s a platform for discovering and reviewing Indian wedding vendors. Um, in terms of you know, what to expect, overall, what we’re trying to achieve is, we’re not here to, you know, necessarily tell people exactly what they would like to hear not what we don’t want to tell them what they would like. Some people might like what they hear some people might not like, might not like what they hear. The point being is the answers that that will be shared here. That’s based on research that was done beforehand. facts and findings. So it’s, it’s meant to be in the spirit of honesty and transparency based on the information that Rami here discovered. Um, with that said, If folks aren’t super familiar with zoom, I had mentioned that I, in the last 10 minutes, we’ll have an open q&a, I know that the audience has been muted. So what that means is, if you do have questions that come up, use the Zoom group chat. It’s on the right hand side of the zoom meeting that you have open right now. bottom right hand corner is called zoom group chat. And when you send the questions, right above the message box, there is a drop down, that lets you choose who you want to send the messages to. So make sure that you send those messages to everyone, there’s literally a user or an option in there that leads as everyone. Um, with that said, we’re gonna go ahead and jump into the questions. These are questions many of you, many of you submitted to us. I’ll be asking the questions on your behalf. And then Rami will go ahead and answer. Rami, you have anything you want to add before we get started?

Rami 03:04

Um, yeah. So on my zoom platform, the chat is at the bottom.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 03:08

Oh, really?

Rami 03:09

Yeah. So I think I may just depend just so people know that that’s, that’s where you can also drop the chat, if it’s not in the view that Kamran is saying, it’s like, they’ll be like, participants chat share screen record, I took my glasses off because of the glare reactions. We’re getting a lot of those. But um, it’s there. And yeah, like he said, just to use the everyone type of thing. And what I was gonna say is we have like, we have a lot of questions. So I would kind of advise to wait until near the end of our session, to ask the questions, because maybe we’re already gonna go through that, and you’ll get your answer. If not, then of course, you know, ask away. But just for I guess, like for us to be concise and not be scrolling through so many question may be answered already. As Kamran said, this is not legal advice. I’m not giving legal advice over zoom. I’ve been getting a lot of trouble for this. So I want to give that disclaimer out there. Because, for me, that would be liability. And it could ruin my career, if I’m giving legal advice over over zoom, which is why I’m not going to answer some of the questions. And I’ve told Kamran, that some of the questions were quite lengthy, and could take me an hour or two to respond to just on their own. And so I hope you all understand that I’m sure you do. Forgive me this perspective on things. But yeah, just like a talk about your options, what’s worth it, what’s not worth it, you know, how you can move forward and maybe how the court would view things just because, you know, being in practice, we see what the court likes and what they don’t like. And that also affects us as lawyers and affects you as you know, the consumer and I’m divorced now, but I have been married. So I understand the position that you’re all in having been a past bride and I’m sure okay, I’m hearing it again. And so, I empathize with all of you on that level as to how difficult As you know, you plan your wedding and you want everything done the way you want it. But it’s an unprecedented time for for everybody, vendors included, and you on the court system. And so I just want to I just want to put that out there. And before we come on, and I did the podcast last time, I did do a search online to see if there’s been any case law on this type of topic. Obviously very rare to be like, Oh, you know, can we get our vendor deposit returned during the middle of a pandemic? Like, it’s a very specific type of case, but I wanted to just see if there’s anything, you know, act of nature, tornado earthquake, you know, any any case like that, that the court would see is what they say analogous. So a parallel case that they would apply in this type of circumstance. And, and I’ve looked, and there hasn’t been anything. And so I just wanted to be to be clear about that. So you know, going forward. So that’s a long spiel. But I guess we’ll get started.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 05:57

And before we before I jump into asking the questions, I did want to let folks know that this recording, an audio version and video version will get published today, it’ll go on InstagramTV, YouTube, and also get across podcast platforms like iTunes, Spotify, and so on. So anybody that did sign up for this, I will reach back up by email with links to all of that, and any questions that we’re not able to get to today, because if we run out of time, Rami and I will be having a follow on podcast episode to go through this questions they will not be live at. And I will share a link to that episode when it is available. So let’s go ahead and jump into things for me. The first question we have is, are we entitled to refunds of deposits, paid to vendors who cannot provide services due to COVID restrictions? If entitled to refunds? How much? And how do we go about getting them?

Rami 07:00

Yeah, so this question is, I mean, difficult to answer from a legal standpoint, because every contract looks different. I’m sure there are some vendors that haven’t even got you to sign a contract in paper form, what you would naturally describe a contract to be with clauses and signatures or, or whatever. A contract can also be over text message over email, right? I don’t want to get too legal, but they’re just elements that bring up or that you have to suffice in order to have a contract. Like, what’s the offer? Did you accept that? You know, just like, okay, hey, we’ll provide you video for $14,000. You say, Okay, you’ve accepted that right, you give the deposit down, blah, blah, blah. So it doesn’t have to be I should preface by saying that it doesn’t have to be a formal contract that you would expect, right? To be disputed or not, like it could be in many different forms. And the court will, the court will, we’ll look at that. Actually, before, I just want to say when it comes to, you know, text messages, emails, Instagram, DMS, whatever communications with your vendors, keep all of that, you know, in a folder, whether it’s a you know, you’ve had a phone conversation with them, you’ve met them in person, I’m assuming social distancing, or over zoom or whatever, have notes of everything. It’s a he said, she said, game, it all comes down to whatever evidence you have in the event that you do end up going forward with legal action, which we’ll come we’ll talk about a little bit more. But it is important to keep all of that information in writing to say something come on.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 08:31

Yeah, there was, I think, a follow on question to that same question where it so so if you’re entitled to refunds? How much? And how do we go about getting them?

Rami 08:41

Yeah. So again, so I’m gonna come back to the question. I just wanted to give that preface, because that’s gonna go for every single question that, that comes up here basically, like having all that stuff’s screen recorded, or screenshot, whatever. But um, yeah, like it really is contract specific, you’d have to look at what the clause says, Is there even Is there a clause? First of all, do you have a formal contract? What does it say about refunding the deposits? And, and or have you only had that discussion over an email? And so there really is no blanket statement to say you have a certain entitlement to something, or to get something back from what I know, because I do know, a lot of vendors in the industry, everyone’s been dealing with this very subjectively, people have been like not returning them. I don’t know anyone that hasn’t done that, that has started taking that step. I know, there obviously are vendors that are doing that, given the questions and what I’ve kind of heard here and there, I haven’t been reading much, but you know, people are giving $0 some people are giving me 100% back, some 25 ,75, 50. And so everyone’s kind of using their own discretion right now. And so when it comes to how much are you entitled to get back? There actually really is no answer. It would depend on what you’ve agreed to. And if if there is even that sort of information in the agreement that you have Formal or not, if he was like, okay, he is not going to go ahead with my wedding. They’re like, Okay, well, you forfeit the deposit, like, okay, yeah, that’s something you might just find out now, until they’re early, there really is no entitlement to get something back. And that’s for a lot of the questions here, it would depend on what the contract says, and what they’re willing to give you, essentially, and negotiating that. And I also want to say, and this goes for all the questions like, as I said, it’s unprecedented. The vendors are going through this for the first time, as are you, you know, you’re losing money, but they’re also losing money. And they also have families to feed. And so a lot of these people have taken these deposits and use them as their income, right? They’re not sitting in what lawyers would say, like a trust pooled account, where they’re only taking the deposit into effect at the time of your booking. Right? They’ve used that money, that’s their income. And so it’s like shit on both sides, for sure. And I can, I can see it, you know, that not like striking Well, with a lot of people. But at the end of the day, it is it does come down to your subjective agreement, and what the vendor is willing to, to provide to you, outside of, let’s say, taking any sort of action. Right.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 11:16

Okay. Let’s move on to the next question. The next question is, if we do not cancel our event, and our event date passes, without us receiving services from our vendors, what are we entitled to? And what is the process? If we go to small claims court? What are the chances we will receive judgment in our favor?

Rami 11:38

Yeah, so I’m just gonna read the question.

11:47

So I’m assuming that the judgment, the favor would be to get a deposit back, and or whatever money has already been given Small Claims, just like any other court is, again, subjective on what the court decides they’re going to look at previous case law, I mean, in this specific instance, there is no case law on this type of situation. So they’re gonna have to go and pick and choose from other cases that are the most similar to create a precedent for everybody moving forward.

12:19

And so when it comes to that, there is no real, hey, you’re going to get this amount back from your vendor. It just, again, becomes a game of he said, she said, what was your contract? What was your agreement, which is what they’re going to look at, they’re not going to, they’re not going to go above and beyond, they’re going to look at what you’ve given them what your agreement was, what that information was, and that’s how they interpret the courts job is not to ask for evidence, right? And so they’re gonna look at what was the agreement there. And so if your dates past, and you, I guess, maybe by chance, you’re like, Okay, let’s just keep the date for the middle of July, hoping that things are gonna get better, and it hasn’t passed, and you haven’t talked to your vendor about that ahead of time. I would think that in that event, you would potentially forfeit the deposit. Um, just given the uncertainty of things, right. When it comes to what the chances are for judgment in your favor, it’s, again, what you’re actually giving to the court as evidence. What has the vendors, actions or communications been with you? Have they been? No. Negative? And their remarks not accommodating you? Have they given you a lot of options? Right, if they’ve tried to be reasonable with you? And this isn’t any question if they’ve tried to be reasonable with you, and try to give you you know, like a way out, or no, some people are doing like, hey, somebody can buy your deposit out, right?

13:45

At the end of the day, it’s like, if they’re trying to accommodate you, it’s a two way street. And that actually doesn’t look good in court. If, if the court would see or the judge their justice would see that you’ve not been accommodating the other way around, and that the vendors tried to do everything to help you. And you just are very stern on what you want. Given the unprecedented time. I’ll just say right now that more often than not, it’s not gonna not gonna say it’s not going to go in your favor. It will just go to to be careful what I say here. I don’t want the same thing. Um, yeah. Just Just be as accommodating as you can as well during this time is what I want to say.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 14:35

Right? That’s fine. I’m gonna move on to the next question. These are kind of variations of one another. But here’s the next one. If I were considering legal action, what would be the next steps and associated costs? In what situation would you recommend or not recommend going down this path?

Rami 14:55

Yeah, so let’s just say now Kamran, so let’s see right before the q&a What I’ll do is, Kamran and I tried this out, before we started, we’re going to use the share screen option. So I’m going to show you guys the tribunal option and the Small Claims option how to file those claims online. Right? So we’ll explain that process. And so I guess any sort of question that has to do with what’s the process, we can just like skip over, and like we’ll go through, we’ll just go through that at the end. But we can show everybody on the screen, what it looks like, and like, what to click and what not.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 15:27

Sure.

Rami 15:27

But I guess in this question, I could say, the next steps and associated costs. And so yeah, it really is about a cost benefit analysis at this point of time. As harsh as this is, just coming from, like a friend point of view, or an outsider, it’s like, what are you wanting to do to make a point? And what are you actually wanting to do because you feel like you are owed 1000s and 1000s of dollars, right? So it’s not, it’s not about getting back at your vendor for not giving you a deposit back? I mean, for a lot of people it is because as I said, it’s like, it’s upsetting, right? But the cost to file a claim and run a claim through will likely be five to six times the amount of your actual deposit. So let’s say have a calculator here, let’s say even Okay, let’s say you even have a junior lawyer, okay. Let’s say the junior lawyers rate is $225 an hour that costs that’s like for the lawyer, and for all the, like, the assistants fees, and all that right? If you guys have gone to lawyers, you know, it’s not cheap. So let’s say $225, let’s say at minimum, somebody’s spending 10 hours on your on your file, right? That’s 20 to 50. Right there. On top of that, you got tax. So let’s say let’s just say that’s like three grand, right? And you have disbursements? What are the filing fees? filing fees are like a couple hundred dollars? Right? How many times are people going to appearances, or they’re charging you here and there for for travel fees? Right. Lawyers we charge for everything is kind of like, you know, a doctor is not going to do surgery without doing consult, without looking at your clinical records, without looking at your previous medical history, like, so much work goes into it, which maybe it’s just an education lesson for people how much work is going to go into looking at this contract? Right? Like I I’ve looked at contracts and had 40 page reports on one contract, right? That’s not going to be the instance here, there’s going to be a lot simpler, but it’s like going it’s like how much material do you have? How many text messages conversations how many times you got to go back and forth. And you’re charged for that every time. So you could be looking at you know, even like $10,000 for just wanting to get a grand back? It could be as little as you thought you follow the small claims, thing yourself and you’re out $500? Right. So it all depends if you want to do it on your own, which is very simple. Well, simple enough for somebody that how do I say this, like, you don’t have to have like a law degree or even a Bachelor’s in order to know how to file into civil tribunal. It’s meant for a lay person for anybody to be able to go and to be able to access it. And so if you’re looking to do do it on your own, you’re not looking at too much money, right. But it also is the amount of time you’re going to put into it. The investment. The Supreme Court itself is very backed up the tribunal and B.C. claims, small claims, you can do some stuff online right now, or not all of it, I only really practice in the Supreme Court. But you’re able to do all that online. And let’s say ends up being something where you want to take it to the Supreme Court for whatever reason, I mean, it would have to be over $35,000 to do that. You’re looking at at least a two to three year delay. So it’s also like, how much mental like strain Do you want to put on yourself over the next two or three years over that amount of money. And so, so the cost associated lot, lawyer wise, upwards to $5,000. And if you do everything on your own, it could be a lot less, but also take into consideration the amount of time it’s going to take you to put just given the circumstances right now the tribunals are still running, but it just depends on which way you’re going to go about it.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 19:00

Okay, and the one thing I do want to make here, just based on the, you know, my team did a survey of people who have lost their deposits and the amounts kind of vary, but at least from the from our responses, like an average potential loss of like, almost $13,000. So, I mean, again, it might be worth it, it might not be worth it. It depends, I think, your individual situation.

Rami 19:26

And the thing is $13,000 is going to be spread among more than one vendor. Right? Yeah, that’s the only challenge you’re gonna have a claim more than one claim. You can’t go and claim for all the money in one claim.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 19:39

Sure. Okay. Yeah, well, but any of these general process questions we’ll revisit when we do this later. So moving on to the next question. So somebody asked on the Facebook group I’m following B.C. Indian Wedding Vendor Reviews/Recommendations, and another one called Vendors Refusing Refunds COVID-19 It seems many are refraining from from revealing which vendors are refusing to return deposits. Is there any legal risks if couples exposed the name of the vendors who are refusing to reimburse deposits, or treating customers unfairly otherwise? No,

Rami 20:19

It’s just like a general review. Right? You’re giving a review. The note I made here was to be cautious of defamation. Um, you don’t want to be saying something about a vendor that isn’t true, because you’re upset that could get you into trouble. If you’re saying something that wasn’t true, right. So if you’re just saying this person did x, y, Zed, or you’re giving a part of a story, you know, people get parts of the story all the time, I hear this all the time from my friends at our vendors, like, you know, they’re saying all of this, but they’re not saying what we said to them. Because you want to make the vendor look bad. Again, it’s all about like, remember, it’s a person on the other side as well, that’s also dealing with this. What you say and put out there, of course, reflects your you and your reputation. And also, at the end of the day, it’s like the goal I would hope is not to, to have a vendor completely lose out on future business. Unless it’s to that point where you you think that you know, they’ve done something so disparaging that, you know, you want to blast them. Hey,I, blasted a couple of vendors. I know that right, I really have full well, knowing that I mean, it was all in honesty. And anyways, so it’s like I understand that point of view, but don’t go and be posting things that aren’t right, that aren’t true. You know, it’s like, there’s no, I wouldn’t say there’s no harm in exposing a vendor. It’s like, if it’s the truth, that’s what happened and you want other people to know, then I can’t say for sure that there would be no legal implication. But if that person gets mad enough, and wants to make, you know, sue you for defamation, for whatever reason, I don’t think the comments are getting out to that extent, you’re probably just wanting to say, for example, on any one, I don’t want to actually mention any vendor names, because I don’t want anyone to think that any place is good or bad or whatever. But you make like, oh, x Hall, you know, didn’t do this for me, like, whatever. Everybody has a right to know how, how you’ve been treated. But just highlighting the point to just make sure you’re telling the truth.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 22:17

Awesome. Okay. Moving on to the next question. Are vendors, for the hall owners allowed to hold on to our deposits, if we want to cancel due to COVID-19? Also, my guest list is 400 people. So I wouldn’t be allowed to hold my event in August. Anyways. So in this case, wouldn’t the hall offer my money back, the hall owner at x Hall, I took the name out, said I have three years to hold my wedding plans have changed. And we and we are no longer having a hall party. And I don’t want to go to small claims court. And the city of Richmond told me that the owner needs to give me my deposit back.

Rami 22:59

Yeah, I don’t know who at the City of Richmond you spoke to, um, this question was difficult for me, like when I was reading it, because that’s how I’m reading it. And correct me if I’m wrong, if you’re on this to some Zoom right now, it’s that you voluntarily decided to change your plans, um, you decided not to have a party anymore, let’s say altogether. So you’ve changed the plans on your end. And so you want the money back, which doesn’t even give the hall owner any option to, to recoup the money that they would have had from your party. Right. And so, thinking about it that way, it’s like, of course, so many people have decided to cancel their weddings and stuff just to have something small, or just to do whatever, or just postpone it indefinitely, or whenever things are looking better. But in this instance, I would, I would forfeit the deposit. Just because you decided to not go through with the party, as hard as I’m sure that is to hear. And in essence, you’ve kind of screwed the hall owner on on owner over as well, because they can’t hold your party anymore, because you don’t want to have it. And so I see that as a kind of a two way street. So in my mind, that would be the compensation to the hall ownerfor you not wanting to go through with your event. Because they’ve had they’ve had they’ve given you an option. They given you time to go forward and you know, three years, so he just decided not to and so that’s just like a shitty outcome for for that couple.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 24:30

Yeah. So I mean, if that person is on this call, for not interpreting the question in full, please correct us in the chat. Otherwise, we’re going to go on to the next question. Second, scrolling down, okay. Um, if a customer wins in court, is the vendor required to pay any interest accrued for holding on to the deposit?

Rami 25:00

We’re going through the questions the same time. Yeah, depends on the agreement. Um, again, no, there’s no right or wrong here. The thing I love about law, but which is the most annoying is that there’s not always an answer to something. So the court can interpret costs an interest as they want, and or the registrar in the court. And so it’s really up to the judge, your lawyer, you would make up an argument of how much money you want, and how much interest you want, why you want that interest. You know, and, and provide that, and they will determine based on based on the evidence you give. So, it’s possible, right? It’s possible, but there’s no clear cut answer as costs in any sort of claim. I’m very, you’re gonna have like, let’s say, one accident can have 35,000. The next one could have 75. The next one put up, like 13.

25:56

Right. It’s all based on what you give and the efforts that you took to mitigate your loss, meaning, what have you done to to help yourself in the situation, which is why I say, don’t always be accommodating, they want to look at your mitigation efforts, what have you done on your end? to just make things you know, better for yourself? and easier on the vendor? Right.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 26:19

And I think the main thing there, it sounds like it comes down to what your what you and or your lawyer stances on the specific amount that you’re defining should be paid back? And the specific amount of interest along with like justification, and then that, and then the answer to that depends on basically what the judge says, right. Okay. Moving on to the next question, what can existing 2021 couples, parentheses, those who have not rescheduled close parentheses, do to prepare and plan ahead for a possible banning of large gatherings next year in the summer? In a practical and contractual sense? Yeah, so,

Rami 27:06

um, I think it’s a good plan moving forward with new vendors, to or vendors, you know, just to have some sort of existing, I’ll just have a communication with them to be like, Oh, hey, you know, we none of us saw this coming. Can we put something in our agreement in the event that this happens again, or continues, and we have another way of like, you know, ask them to come up with some sort of agreement there. To put to put that forward? And I think to have a plan B, right? If you have to have a plan B, yes. Like, okay, in the worst case, this happens.

27:42

What do we want to do, because we really don’t know how long this is going to go on for at least not right now. And so I think it’s good to just have that have that plan in mind ahead of time, just so it’s plan, if Plan A doesn’t work, God forbid, I don’t think that’s gonna happen. But if Plan A doesn’t work, you already know what your plan B is. Right? And you’ve already kind of you already have an agreement with your vendors as to what’s going to happen with a deposit money. Um, I would say maybe just wait a little bit like a couple of months before you start asking your vendors because they’re probably dealing with, you know, all these 2020 brides right now. And so when they’re maybe in a little bit of a commerce space, and not, not like, you know, so hectic and overwhelmed, and just talk to them about how you can approach that situation. And, you know, just for your own assurance and insurance.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 28:30

Cool. There was a question if it was more of like a statement, and I’m gonna kind of sum summarize the question, summarize a statement. So somebody had shared the feedback there. They feel like it’s become the wedding culture, or like a South Asian weddings has kind of become exuberant, like, people want, they feel like people are putting on like, these really big weddings, and lost the meaning of the purpose of getting married. And the question, which I’m just posing here to be a good steward is and it’s not related. It doesn’t seem related to COVID-19 question is, are there any decent premarital counselors out there?

Rami 29:14

Yeah, so for those of you that follow me outside of this or that know me, I do a lot of I do spiritual work. I’m like a psychic. And so , I do that actually did a video I think, I don’t know less than two weeks ago about the impact that COVID like alive, the impact that COVID is having on relationships, when it comes to relationships falling apart, because it’s been about the wedding and not the marriage. And it’s something that I’ve seen a lot even with friends and stuff of mine where it’s like everyone wants the stuff of like, I want this this this and then what happens when when the wedding is over and then you like realize like she kind of hate you. That happens all the time. Right? You see people I’m really honestly no one to talk cuz I’m divorced, right? But like generally like it’s like Um, obviously you get divorced because something isn’t working out, right, we’re still good friends, but it’s like it wasn’t a match. Not that I’m saying that things came. Because of what? I don’t know what I was gonna say. But, you know, it’s, it just is what it is. But it is important to like, during this time when I talk about on a spiritual sense on my on my page, asking yourself, you know, the type of relationship, like whatever relationship you’re in, looking at how much effort and time you’ve put into just a wedding and not your relationship because you let that kind of get away from you. And then things are just like, you’re gonna, you’re gonna realize when your wedding’s over, you’re gonna understand, like, how much time you put into planning it, when you see that, like, you have all this free time, when all the bills are paid, and everything’s done, you’d be like, what was I doing for 10 hours a day? Right? Or, or you’re gonna be like, Oh, crap, okay, our relationship like was like, great, because you started all these arguments and stuff during, you know, over a vendor and over what you want over what you don’t want. And COVID is like, you know, everything, just like going all over. And so it really is an important time to look at that. Because I have had messages for people that follow my spiritual stuff that are broken up with, they’re called off engagements called up weddings, realizing that they want more of life and on a spiritual sense, that’s what COVID is, of course, it’s happening scientifically, and people are dying. But this isolation period is really forcing people to look at their relationships from a new perspective, especially if you’re in whatever sort of distance right you’re not. Maybe you’re not seeing the person. And so I could say that really focus on your relationship. And this is a time to get out, right? It’s an easy way out.

31:42

Right now, if you’ve decided right, that this isn’t going to be for you. COVID is like a blessing in disguise in that way. God, we just called off the wedding because we’re too stressed out, and then let it fizzle away. And it’s easier for you to do that. And I think you should premarital counselors. There are a couple of counselors um, and like the Langley area, what’s their name? I’m gonna Google it right now. So if you actually looking at this, but it is, and there’s no harm in going to count a counselor like there really is no harm and needing guidance. Everyone has difficulties in their relationships. That means that you’re going in, you’re being honest about your relationship and what you need to work on. Right? And how it goes both ways. And just having the open transparency or transparency so Oh, bestmarriages.ca, that is one place and…I don’t know the other one. But But I know that’s a good one. They only really work with couples. I know that for sure. And so if you’re looking, you know, counseling is expensive. So just start to like, look and look into it and see what options you have.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 33:03

Awesome. Our next question. Our month of planner is refusing to not only give back our retainer, but it is but it’s also asking for the rest of the fees. Our wedding was supposed to be June 6, and got cancelled by the venue. We let her know on May 4, which means her month hadn’t started and she won’t be working the 10 hour day of our wedding. This is absurd that she thinks by answering a few texts and emails she deserves $2,000 for for work. She hasn’t done yet. exclamation mark, three of them. I don’t I don’t want to drop that. We live in Los Angeles would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Rami 33:44

Yeah, I think that that’s absurd as well, that someone would want you to pay for for a service that was not completed in full, like at this point you you can’t do it, there’s really no option. And I’m assuming, you know, okay, well saying not only not giving back my retainer, like the deposit portion of it, I’ve already been through, I don’t want to keep hammering it down. At the end of the day. It wasn’t an option to do that. Right. Let’s say unfortunately, you’re in the States. So you can’t even have like a civil ceremony right now. I mean, you’re not gonna really need a wedding planner for civil ceremony to three people unnecessarily, right. Who knows. But, um, but no. Like, it’s my like, that doesn’t make on a contractual sense. Makes no sense to me. Um, yeah, I don’t I don’t think that that should, no.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 34:40

Okay. All right, that makes sense. Moving on to the next question. Sorry. There’s like a lot of questions, some kind of aggression, somewhat rushing through them. I’m wondering if we would be able to get details on a class action lawsuit. If it comes down to it. And many of the wedding vendors are fusing to return deposits. Even if are no services rendered?

Rami 35:03

Yeah, um, so a class action lawsuit has to actually be classified as a class action lawsuit. The court needs to approve that right, you need to have a class of people that meet a certain criteria. Thing is, is a class action lawsuit would have to be against a specific vendor, right? You’re going to get some defended, or everybody’s suing, let’s say, would have to be going against like the same sort of people. And so, okay, if you had like, 20 people that want to file against one vendor, okay, right. But but there are requirements for a class action, and you can’t, necessarily, from what I don’t practice class action, but from what I know, I just read a little bit about it, because I was like, pretty sure you had to get classified as a class action and all that. But you’re going to be like, let’s say, I don’t think this is what the question was, but maybe in case you guys have another question, you can’t be like, Hey, I am going to sue. XYZ vendor. Right? And one claim really doesn’t work that way. Unless there’s a common interest there, right between them or their LinkedIn, whatever way, it’s not going to work. And so yeah, you could, but you’re gonna have to get a group of people together against one vendor.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 36:17

Okay, that makes sense. Looks like a follow on questions. A question. Possibly. I’d also like to get details on the water options are in a scenario where a vendor has a deposit, but isn’t available the date you need them for, for your rescheduled way? Do they legally have to return your posit? Also, how does a non refundable deposit clause work at a time like this where government is limiting number of people and gatherings,

Rami 36:45

To non refundable deposit clause, again, would be specific on the actual contract. So you know what exactly they’re saying, um, when it comes down to you know, they’re not available on the date of rescheduling. As I said before, it’s like a unprecedented time. So what I’m reading here, it’s not that they haven’t tried to accommodate it, it just so happens that maybe you maybe like the specific date you want, you know, they’re not available, and or all your vendors are available in one day, and they’re not, you know, like that kind of situation. I think it’s just fair to to forfeit it at that point, because they’re losing the business not because, you know, they haven’t been accommodating per se. And that kind of way. And if they’ve, you know, if they’re just like, Okay, well give us this as your, as our consideration, as you call it call in law to let the contract go, then I think that that would be fair enough. But when it comes to the non refundable deposit, I’m assuming there’s more of a lengthy agreement here. Or at least like on paper form, not like through email and text, that it would have to be looked at specifically because like I do contract law, or did before my current job, and it’s all come, it all comes down to the interpretation of words, on a contract, and any of these sort of questions, right? It all comes down to the interpretation of a word. And that’s what the that’s what the judges will judge will look at as well.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 38:10

Awesome. Okay, the next question. My question is based on the response I’ve gotten from most vendors, where they will not return any deposit, and it will only transfer them for rescheduling. Is there a legal action that can still be taken?

Rami 38:26

Um, yeah, so I guess we’ve like kind of answered this question in depth, but we’ll go over the options to follow the claim. At the end of the day, like, you know, if you want to do that. So there’s obviously options for all of you in this, right. It’s just a matter of Do you want to go through with that? I’m looking at, you know, the the amount of your deposit. So, yes, there’s legal action, but subjective.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 38:55

Okay. So this, this next question is pretty lengthy and pretty unique, because it has to do with like, multiple countries involved. Okay. I’m gonna read it off. I am, unfortunately, having to deal with international contracts as well as local ones. I found this article from the government of UK and the Consumer Protection Act, they actually shared a link with us. And then the person, the person goes on to say, the statement talks about non refundable deposits in a contract and how to deal with them. And essentially, they’re asking for businesses that are being given grants and benefits from the government to not double dip by also keeping deposits and having clients bear the burden of covering these vendors costs. The CMA which note that stands for the CMA also has a forum where you can report businesses for not refunding or acting fairly. Will we have something similar in place? Can we take vendors to small claims court? How long would these procedures take Can businesses legally ask you to move or postpone your wedding instead of offering a refund if they cannot provide the service as outlined in the contract? Does the law of frustration apply? What I’m looking to get out of this video call is to see whether it is even worth fighting for with lawyer fees and international costs, versus just agreeing to postponing the wedding until next year.

Rami 40:23

Blanket statement, agree to postpone the wedding next year already planning on doing that. I can’t speak to the UK and I didn’t have time to read the link. But yeah, the law of frustration can apply here what frustration is is, you know, you’re not able to actually fulfill your contract for whatever reason, therefore, it’s frustrated. But again, as I said, at the beginning, there’s no law on this until everything is undec. It’s up in the air with the court system as well as to how these are going to be dealt with, and so on. Yeah, like they shouldn’t be double dipping, right? If you qualify for a grant and you haven’t taken it and you know, or whatever, or you got the grant, you’re still holding on to deposits and that was enough to recover it. Like we don’t know, it’s going to be really vendor specific as to the amount of money they’re out. Right, because I don’t I don’t think that the grants are really good. I think, I don’t know if they’re $40,000. And how many more you can, but I don’t know if it goes up in price. I know that there’s that 1 – $40,,000 one. So it’s like, depending on how much the deposits were, and what the agreements are and what what they’re trying to do. I don’t know, of course, at the ready said you can go to small claims. But I don’t know what the process is going to be here. or reading the question, same time. That’s fine. Yeah, I don’t know if I haven’t heard anything. Even in the legal system, the basically what they’re trying to do right now on the law side of things. I’m on the government side of things. They’re just trying to, like, make everything as smooth as possible for all the existing claims and things that are happening urgently. And so I haven’t heard anything new about, you know, processes moving forward. Looking. Yeah. Is it worth fighting for? I mean, we’ve already kind of gone through that, in terms of how much money it’s going to cost you. So, yeah.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 42:11

Our next question, what constitute as using the act of nature clause in a contract, my contract states that an act of nature will forfeit the deposit. But it seems terribly unfair as there were no services rendered. And I and I informed a well in advance prior to the event, a clause seems to suggest that it is something or unforeseen by both parties days before the event. But for my case, it is not parentheses, my wedding is in June.

Rami 42:44

Yeah, like, it looks like this vendor had already done the due diligence and thinking about something like this ahead of time. It’s like, you know, home insurance, you have home insurance, there’s an earthquake, you pay a premium, you get the money back, like you don’t, you don’t know that, you know, you didn’t necessarily know that the earthquake was going to happen, right, but you had home insurance in place or whatever. And so you’re able to, you know, get money back in this instance, they’ve already kind of this is an act of nature. This wasn’t this wasn’t something that anyone could have planned. And they kind of, you know, were smart in already having thought of that. It is an unforeseen situation. And that’s what some of these causes are for, right is their own insurance and insurance to to help themselves and, and, and during an unforeseen event. And so though it’s terribly unfair, they’ve kind of you know, they’ve taken the precaution on there and to be able to retain the money and in the event that they can’t even provide the service to you. And so, yeah, like, I think it’s smart that they have that in their contract to be honest.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 43:54

Okay, so we have about 20 minutes left, I’m just doing a quick time check. So here’s what we’re gonna do. Over the next 10 minutes, we’ll keep plowing through these questions. And if within 10 minutes, there are any additional questions in the chat, we will assume that there aren’t any additional questions for the open q&a session. So we’ll just kind of keep going to these questions and then do the screen share and then awesome. So um, next question. Can unjust enrichment be applied to vendors who have not render the service or are choosing to keep the deposit?

Rami 44:35

Yeah, so it depends on the contract. And you know, the amount of money they’ve taken, and so the example that came to mind is like, let’s say you’ve paid a vendor outright. $10,000 for your photos, right. You pay the deposit and you’ve paid an extra $8,000 for your pictures. If your pictures can’t be taken on the keep that extra money. It’s possible that it could be unjust enrichment right? Again, up to the courts interpretation. I don’t want to say that yes, it would be or not. If it’s that they’re keeping the deposit, for whatever reason, then that would be a little bit different. Because unjust enrichment, it’s like you’re being essentially, you’re being compensated for something you haven’t done yet. Right? So you’re being \ paid in advance, in order to fulfill some sort of what some part of the contract later on. And as of right now, it’s like, if they’re holding on to more money than just a deposit, then it’s a lot different than if it’s just a deposit. Because that’s just like security. And so if you’re, they’re not able to, you know, pay you or they’re not able to provide you pictures, let’s say, for example, and they’re holding on to that money, then that would be a different situation. But it would be contract specific for sure. Again.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 46:00

Next question. I initially booked and paid deposits for services for pre wedding, wedding and reception events. Now, I only have a wedding with less than 50 people, how can we work with vendors to get partial returns on deposits, as I’m no longer needing as many services?

Rami 46:20

Yeah, so um, you know, this is kind of all about negotiating what you can with your vendors. If you’re having people that are not cooperative, I guess, you know, another option other than before a court is negotiation, right? You can have informal or formal negotiation. So informal just being Hey, we’re gonna talk it out and see what we can come to right if we can come to an agreement. Okay, before you go to a formal formal negotiation is like arbitration mediation, which are two separate things. We have like a third party kind of assessment, because of arbitration, you can’t have you can’t go to court. So it’s more of like a system, rather than someone mediating both sides. And so it’s like before, like the middle step before that, is I guess, what I would recommend you do is like to write a letter, write a demand letter being like, okay, you know, I want to discuss this, or this is what I want, back from you in the event that you don’t want to take these steps, right, whether that’s a formal negotiation, whether I’m gonna go to tribunal, I’m gonna go to small claims, right? But always try to have these things in writing, for all of you, not just for this question, to try to negotiate fairly and take all those steps before you kind of jump from Well, you didn’t do what I want to do, I’m going to sue you, right? Try to take the options in between to come to some sort of agreement. And it’s going to be different with every vendor that you have. But maybe just write like a blanket letter out to try to get you know your point across or see how you can get some of your money back.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 47:45

This next question. We’re not going to go into depth about it, because I think we’ll address it when we do the screen share of the various options. But just if you’re on the call, it was the question around having a $6,000 deposit and banquet hall for a 500 person reception. So we’re going to speak to that I think more broadly, we do a screen share of options. Moving on to the question. After that. We have a 20 person private house rental booked. With social distancing requirements, it is not safe to have 20 persons from different households staying in one home. So we reached out to the business renting the home but they refused to refund our $4,250 deposit. Since other vendors like Airbnb and hotels have refunded bookings due to COVID. Are we entitled to no refunds for this booking and we that we can no longer use additional context, the house rental is directly through the landlord, the owner of a tent company rents his house for weddings, it’s not listed anywhere. We found out through vendors that he rents it privately. And the only check accepted check him.

48:53

Yeah, so I didn’t look at the contract. Because I’m not going to do that, to be honest. takes a lot of work on my hands. I didn’t look at the attachment. But But yeah, it’s interest. This is an interesting question for me, because this is something he’s renting out privately and so we don’t really know. He or she what they are doing in order to follow regulations or not. Right. So it’s like, kind of like, okay, are they doing this like privately and profiting and not cleaning that they’re, they’re renting out their house, right? So in that instance, if you you say you want to take legal action, I mean, you might get your money back right away, if they’re doing something that maybe they shouldn’t be doing.

49:34

I don’t want to say they are not I really don’t know what’s going on here. But um, it would be like an option for the tribunal given the amount of the deposit, I would, I would just write like I was saying one of those letters to try to recover the money and in that letter, just say that, you know, you might take it to the tribunal if you don’t hear back and always like set out a specific amount of time and the letters like two weeks or three weeks or whatever. I don’t know, I don’t know if you’ve told them that, hey, all the other platforms are refunding the money, but it’s like you can’t use the house anyway. So it’s going to be sitting there. Not that he’s going to be able to fill it up with anybody else. Like, I don’t know, this one’s like, really, this one hit me a little bit different than other vendors, given the circumstance. And so, yeah,

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 50:20

Okay, so we have about five questions left, and I want to kind of wrap these up in the next three or four minutes. So go on to the next one. Some vendors are offering to hold our deposits for up to a year to rebook our event. This does not make sense to us as we may move out of BC by next year before. Therefore delaying our event has no benefit legally, what are our options? Okay, I see it you mentioned but go for it.

Rami 50:42

Yeah, I didn’t understand it fully. Like I see it, like you’re either gonna get married this year, a different way, or you’re gonna go get married somewhere else. So it’s really subjective to to what your situation is. So therefore, delaying our event has no benefit. So you’re going to get married anyway. So it may just be a situation where you have to forfeit your deposit, because they’re not able to, to perform their side of the contract anyway, because you want to get married this year. Therefore, it’s more more likely than not that you’re gonna have to forfeit it, because they’re, they’re giving you the option. But you don’t want to take it right now, because of other other situations, not in a negative way. But it’s like you have other plans moving forward in your life, and they just can’t accommodate that.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 51:35

Cool. All right. Moving on to the next one. People have suggested several different avenues for handling our concerns with vendors, including small claims court Civil Rights Tribunal or placing a complaint with BBB, which stands for Better Business Bureau. What is your professional opinion on the best avenue to pursue refunds for deposits?

Rami 51:56

Yeah, so we’ve already been to trimming on small claims. And I’ll I’ll go to the differences of those when we go to the screen share, or whatever the amounts are. BBB, like, I would be cautious going through with the BBB. Again, I mean, depending on your intentions, the intention, I would think is not to ruin someone’s business reputation. If it is, and maybe check yourself, right, if it’s something that’s not like, you know, something that they need to be completely like, I don’t know, punished for right, that’s a that’s a big threshold to meet. Even in court, I’ll say that right now. Very, very high threshold to, to punish somebody to ask them, what they would say is punitive or aggravated damages very, very, very high bar there. So it’s not a joke, don’t just go and say you’re going to go sue somebody in bad faith, because you’re mad at them. Like, that’s what I practiced for a full year. And it’s not simple, right? On the contractual side, as well. So I’m familiar with it and the likelihood of your success there. I’m not saying that, I should just say that because you may hear somebody tell your boss to this person in bad faith. Like, if it’s dumb, the courts don’t like it, people are using it for no reason anymore thinking that it’s funny, but they’re like the court themselves are not going to damage a, a company’s reputation publicly without really thinking about what the actions were. And I kind of just use a BBB as the same way. Like, if you’re gonna file a complaint, I think it has to be like pretty egregious conduct for for you to be filing that sort of complaint, because that’s like something that’s gonna, you know, hinder their business moving forward on, whether that’s them getting customers what their options are going to be. And so you know, the BBB has the option of denying whatever complaint it is anyway and shoving it out the door. But I think just from a human compassionate side, be very cautious what you’re what you’re filing against a company. Because you know, even though this may not have an effect on you, personally, this is going to affect the livelihood of this company, and these people that are involved and their families. And so really think about it before you file the complaint. maybe ask a couple of people before you go down that road.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 54:04

In the interest of time, I’m going to skip the next question, because it’s kind of similar to the previous questions. Right. Um, so the question that we will go to is how are deposits treated? The following circumstances when a vendor has not incurred any expenses associated booking, ie new labor, material or other costs? And then the second part of that question is, what if the vendors are not able to deliver as agreed when terms refer set (i.e. paid in full close to $5,000 per outfit) and will not be delivered in time for any event, current shipping restrictions?

Rami 54:37

The first part of the question is like the deposit let’s say is in consideration of the contract, right? So, oh, hey, we’re gonna hold this date in our calendar for you and we’re not going to take on anybody else. But if they can’t take on anybody else anyway, because of COVID they’re they’re already out 75% of the money, let’s say regardless And so I think it’s like kind of the same no matter what the the deposit is, or what type of vendor it’s for, even like, you know, the second part of the question is about the lingo. It’s like, and this situation, it’s actually really out of the company’s hands. It’s like, the vendor could be, you know, sitting there in India, but it’s not like, they have any sort of control as to whether or not it’s shipped. It’s a total different country, and situation and when it comes to that, and so, I don’t know, maybe just try to negotiate with them and see if you know, it’s not obviously what necessarily what you want to wear, but like, ask if they’ll, they’ll give you some sort of deal or offer you something from what they already have in store, if that’s even an option to be like, you know, I, I can’t wear the lehnga that you guys got for me, but see what they’re willing to do for you. And hopefully they will. I think it’s just tricky because it’s being shipped from another country, and they have no control over whether or not it’s shipped, like, they, they could have like, full fulfill their side of the contract by having it done on time. Right. Um, but it’s really not up to them to go in. Like they can’t, they can’t go and pick it up for you and bring it to you, unfortunately.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 56:09

All right. Last question. How do you handle a vendor who is not responding to emails or calls? Yeah,

Rami 56:18

I would, as I was saying before, like, make sure you keep a screenshot of everything, notes or conversations, texts, phone calls, whatever, have them all in a folder. And just a similar letter, like I was saying, like, asking them to respond to you, if they have a, like a brick and mortar, like a storefront, you know, go and tape it on their door, right? email it to them, tell them that you you’ve sent that and to try to get them in communication with you. I mean, I had to deal with this a lot myself, right? Some vendors, they just, they want to get your business and they take your deposit. And then when it comes to the actual event being over, they don’t return any of your calls, right? There’s a lot of vendors that do that, because they’ve got their money’s worth. They’re like, we don’t really care anymore. Right? We wanted your business and now it’s fine. It’s fine for us because we got our money. Right? So you have those types of vendors, but I would just make big make note of that. write them a letter and ask them to, to respond to you. And in the worst case scenario, forfeit that deposit. If it’s going to give you more stress than not or, you know, we’re going to share the screen now. I think so, you know, using one of those options.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 57:23

Yeah, I do see that. Somebody does have a question. We’re going to do the screen share first, and then address any prior but have one or two minutes to address any remaining questions. And we’ll make sure to get to the one that was shared by SK right after the screen share. Okay, so I’m going to make me a host. Yeah, just bear with me, everybody. This is my first time like posting a thing like this on zoom. So technical difficulties have been real. Okay, so I’m going to go ahead and make you off post. Yes. So you should be able to share your screen and we go to a different tab before I start here.

Rami 58:07

Okay. But I might have exited for a second already. So let’s go here. Can we see this screen? Oh, what’s going on?

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 58:25

I see the screen now.

Rami 58:27

Yeah. Okay.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 58:28

But he can’t see the screen mentioned in the chat. But I see it.

Rami 58:35

Someone Yeah. Just say yes or no.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 58:39

Yes. Somebody said yes.

58:40

Yes. Okay, perfect. So this is a civil resolution tribunal. The CRT is, you know, online, you’re able to file a claim up to $5,000. Right. So the difference between a CRT hearing and a small claims hearing is the amount of money right Small Claims you can go up to I believe 35,000. It could be 50. I think the 50 is only for personal injury actions like car accidents. Okay. So I’m just going to preface by saying I’m not positive if it’s 35, or 50. From what I know, over 35, you’re going to be going to Supreme Court, right? Which is far more delayed at the moment. But CRT is meant to be very user friendly. And so you can see this website here, right civil resolution tribunal, bc.ca. And so what you’re going to do, if you want to make a claim, I’ve never actually used this properly. But even to say Apply, right? You’re going to want to apply for for whatever reason. In here, you’re going to go down to small claims it’s going to be buying or selling, right? It’s a buying or selling of goods. And so you’re gonna say okay, but there’s services. I’m a buyer, right, you’re going to click Start. And you’re going to go, you’re going to go through all of this. I’ll just quickly go through it. A little bit of it. I’m using a private computer. But as you can see, it’s made for the lady person, right? The CRT is meant for an average person to be able to go on that you don’t have to really know anything about the law, right? But for personal use force, I would assume was the seller in the business a buyer, you would assume? If you want to be a dip, you can say no. What did you buy something else? Right. And so you’re gonna just go through this whole thing, and you’re gonna follow the plane, let’s say, if you want to do that, let’s just go a couple more arrows here. Next, we can read about all this, right? They want to make it easy for you. Maybe it’s okay, a problem with payments or money, right, but something else and something else, you can provide more information, there’s a problem with payment or cost the seller wants to see as good as I was charged for something I didn’t want buyer want, am I able to pay, let’s say, for example, right? And so they’re gonna give you this whole like steel, so you read that you go next, so on and so forth, right? So whatever the options are, as you go on, then you can go back, let’s say me, that didn’t work for me. I want to choose a different option to see if it’s better for me, oh, I was charged for something at Empire. Right. So very user friendly. So you’re going to go through that. And this is for claims that are above five, or that are $5,000. And under.

Rami 1:01:15

Second option is small claims.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:01:16

Okay, so the first one is civil disputes, which is not small claims.

Rami 1:01:20

Yeah. This is not small claims. This is a civil resolution tribunal. So they try to resolve whatever they can through the CRT. If it can be right, so it’s user friendly. You don’t have a judge, but you do have the tribunal member. They’re all lawyers practicing lawyers that will assess your claim, let’s say, right. So that’s where the CRT that as I said, is $5,000 or less. And after that, is, Why is this not working? There we go. Oh, gosh, it’s not gonna be difficult. Okay. This Oh, yeah.

1:01:59

Small Claims. So small claims, as I was saying, I believe that is 35,000. And just for the accident stuff, it’s 50. But Small Claims will only hear your claim that’s under $5,000. If for whatever reason, the CRT has refused to hear it, okay? Do you need to go to the CRT first. And if it’s, let’s say, within the amount of $5,000, in less, right, if it’s more than $5,000, against one vendor, remember that you’re not going against multiple vendors on one claim. So I’m doubting that anything’s above $5,000 for deposit, given the amount of deposit using pay, right, like, say 500 bucks to 2000, right. So in the event that CRT said, we’re not going to hear your claim, for whatever reason, then you go to small claims, if it’s above 5000, you can go to small things, we can do it online, so claims over $5,000 start a claim, and it gives you all the steps that you need to do that, okay. And it’ll have all the options on there. What about court fees, you know, the schedules, like whatever you need to file. And I’m not going to go through all this because very, very lengthy, but you can see it Small Claims whoopsies Small Claims, BC, CA. And so you can read about what the options are there. You know what you have to file at the registry and whatnot. And so, yeah,

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:03:20

I think I saw there’s a link to a tutorial video and

Rami 1:03:24

yeah, yeah, Small Claims is good. Like, honestly, even I’ve, I’ve Can you see me now? Yeah, I can see. Even I’ve like, watched some tutorial videos and stuff myself. Because, you know, like, at the beginning of practice, you’re just like, okay, I want to make sure you’re doing everything right. And so it is user friendly. If you’re uncertain, then you’re also able to, you know, the registry is backed up, if you try to call them for lawyers, we have to go to the same line unless you know, somebody there personally. But once the court system opens up again, you may be able to go and ask them person, but generally, you know, Google, Google is a friend.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:03:57

Awesome. Okay, so there were two questions that came up. Let’s just do this. I’ll ask them. And if you think that it might want to be maybe answered, and like our private podcast episode, let me know. So because we’re kind of we’re up on time. So this first question what happens in a situation where you don’t cancel your wedding, and then a vendor is not able to perform the service they were contracted for, due to a government restriction preventing them from working so I think in this context of talking about a makeup artist, at that point, the custard consumer has not failed to perform, they’re part of the contract but the vendor has, with that not caused the contract to be breached by the vendor and therefore make the contract void and deposit returnable that amount to either frustration of the contract or breach of contract by the vendor due to failure to perform obligations under their contract, ie non performance?

Rami 1:04:52

While they’re not not performing because they don’t want to. They’re not refusing to perform. They’re just doing demanded by whatever regulation that like saying that they can’t. And so it’s really specific. Like, again, like, this is unprecedented. So to say that frustration could apply or not sure. Like, we don’t know for sure, because there’s no law on it. But it’s not. Like, it’s, it’s tough to say like, what’s what’s going to happen if, like, on the other side, like a vendor is not going to perform their side of the contract, let’s say if they are going to risk citations, and doing that, you know, in order to fulfill their side of the agreement. So in this case, like they’ve been, they’re not able to for whatever reason. And let’s say, You’re assuming you’re still going through with your wedding, they have regulations, they have to follow those two, because that puts them out, you know, liability, and they have their own liability and stuff. We can do a follow up to that, Kamran.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:05:58

Yeah. So this chat window sucks. And then somebody asked in the situation above, would we also be good, we also look at what other vendors are doing, for example, there are other makeup artists continuing to perform services. Um,

Rami 1:06:14

I know that there are like some people that are probably not following proper social distancing protocols, just from what I can see on online on Instagram and stuff. And so like, you know, yeah, if they’re keeping the six feet, but there, they are. Seeing a new, like, you know, two or three people a week like Dr. Bonnie Henry has said, I’m pretty sure to keep it to the same six people. Right. And so I think if someone is really looking out for their best interest as a vendor, or makeup artist, let’s say that seeing multiple people all the time, or whatever, I don’t really know, right? Like, I’m, like, I’m just spitballing here, because I don’t know what that exactly happening with the agreement was, who the vendor is and what type of service it is, like, like, this is like, this is a conversation that could go on for five hours. But if there’s something that they have been government mandated not to do, then they’re not going to do it right. And, and in that instance, it just goes back to the whole, the whole thing of, it’s all subjective, it’s all based on the vendor, you can say, hey, this person’s doing x, y, Zed, but if a person is doing x, y Zed by not following the proper protocol, and you can’t really get mad at the vendor for not doing something that they’re actually not supposed to be doing.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:07:32

There’s one more follow on to that. I do want to slide in one question. Somebody private messaged me. Any other questions that come up? Send them over to info at Plan Events that ca i think, who did that email in the chat? And if we have enough questions, then Remy and I will get on a podcast episode and address those kind of in a an anonymized form. But yeah, so the other follow on question from amber says, and to build on that we have places like hair salons reopening, which are under similar situations with regards to social distancing.

Rami 1:08:07

Yeah, but like, I think this is different, like people have their own reasons for not wanting to open or open maybe some people are immunocompromised, like there’s so many things that can subjective things that can go into somebody’s opening or not, and not wanting to put themselves at risk, because they’re in close proximity with people that are immunocompromised, they could be pregnant, they can be sick, they you know, it’s like, there’s so many things, there’s not a yes or no answer. Yes, salons are opening, but even my salons not open because they’re still taking two weeks to figure out the proper protocols and, and guidelines that they want to take. Right. And so I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t necessarily like unless you know, for sure that somebody is like a vendor, you’re trying to compare them too is doing something that is allowed, right? Like, I wouldn’t go and give examples to a vendor saying, well, this person’s doing this and that, but it’s like, if that person is not listening to the government, or you know, following what they should be following, then I think that’s pretty unfair to put on a vendor to expect them to do something that they shouldn’t be doing in the first place. So I think it’s important to keep that in mind. Again, every industry is different, every person is different. They all have different legal liabilities, as well as you know, their own their own personal stuff. And so I can’t say for sure what would happen there with the vendor. Like, you know, what they’re doing or shouldn’t be doing, like, Um, but yeah.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:09:36

Um, so last question we’ll address here. It was sent to me privately, can you and once again, if if you still have questions, we’re not ignoring them. We will address them in a separate podcast episode if there are enough questions that come through. So this last question, can you please address the vendors asking for 50% of full payment to be paid, even if a 500 person reception is canceled? Gathering bans. And I think that actually was related. Give me Give me a second related to one of the questions I had I thought we could address through the during the screenshare. And the person who DM me, I’m going to read off the fuller question of this. And then you can DM me and correct me if this is wrong. So this is a scenario where like a $6,000 deposit was paid at the banquet hall for 500 person reception, there’s no way to do that actually have that event in that place at that time as of the COVID restrictions, and that the vendor is refusing to return the deposit. There’s a clause in their contract that states if this contract is null and void by way of deposits not paid or for any other reasons, reason, any funds are seen by the lessor is non refundable, and the less will pay to the lessor and the lessee. Sorry, the lessee will pay to the lessor, 60% of the total contract amount as compensation for loss of income, or the function less any deposits we received. That’s the end of that clause. And then the question is, are we entitled to any refunds? And how do we go about getting that since vendors already refused?

Rami 1:11:13

Yeah, like that question was submitted on under the other questions. And, um, I purposely didn’t answer that. Because as I said, like, I’m not going to give legal advice on here, it’s a very specific question that would require me to give you a wholesome response and opinion, so I have to keep that in mind. I mean, they’re not even, like, you’re not able to even have the event there. So for for sure, like, it doesn’t really make sense that they would take 60% of the money if there’s really no option. But again, like you’d have to talk to talk to the vendor about about that, and try to get whatever back and see what recourse you have.

1:11:49

I mean, and on the flip, it’s like, they’re gonna, they’d have to take action against you to get the rest of the money back. Right, that’s not something that that’s on them if they want you to fulfill something. And so that’s kind of playing it, playing it by ear there. Um, and then this question about the vendor being able to keep the payment associated with wedding outfit. So wedding outfit, I would say, that’s a unique situation, I’ve already said, I don’t want to, like, you know, keep beating a dead horse here. It’s like, everything is subjective. It’s split, you know, like, I don’t know. And in general, I’m just saying, This is what it would look like subject or like, on an on an objective scale of, you know, they, they can’t get the wedding outfit here. Like if it’s already ready or not, like it’s ready, they, they put their money and resources into it on there. And in India, and it’s just like, shitty that it can’t come, they can’t get here. Which was what, why my suggestion was just as, like, from an objective viewpoint, not even as a lawyer is that like, you know, see what we can, what you can negotiate out with them, what they can give you and, you know, if they can give you some of the money back again, it’s just so specific on on the people. Um, yeah. So hope this is at least a little bit helpful. Oh, no worries.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:13:08

Okay, um, I know, there were a lot of questions we we did our best to provide, you know, the most practical information and facts. Thank you, Rami, for taking the time.

Rami 1:13:22

No worries.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:13:24

Are there any of you have, like, quick any last thing you want to mention? The last 30 seconds before we wrap this up?

Rami 1:13:30

Yeah, I just wanna I just want to say, I mean, the nicest way possible. I would just appreciate if people don’t bombard my Instagram with a bunch of follow up questions to these questions. You know, like, I wanted to give as much insight as I could objectively from the legal side of things. But, you know, I can’t be giving legal advice over Instagram. It does take a lot of time, I’d need to go through everything of yours and ask you a bunch of questions. And I just don’t have the time right now. And so any follow up questions as Kamran was saying, just send them off to him? We’ll try to answer them in podcast form. If we have enough to maybe if not, we can find out, find a different way to actually answer those. Right. Oh, hold on. I’ll just answer this last question. You mentioned that if couples are unable to postpone their wedding, and forfeiting their deposit is a fair option. Would a court view other options as fair such as partial deposit, return or reimbursing the full deposit when the business resumes again in the future? Yeah, yeah, maybe? Like, I think that the court may, again, they’re going to look at everything subjective. So once, let’s say they’ll tell you like once, like one case is kind of inset and law on this, if somebody goes forward with it. The courts gonna continuously look at that. So it’s all going to really be based on what, let’s say, one, what one judge has said, or they’ll just look at it subjectively, and they may just depends on the judge you get, they may just say, hey, you should return the full amount or you had enough money to you know, so it’s always everything’s an option in law. Literally almost everything as an option in law, it’s always changing. And so if you decide to go that route, then

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:15:08

you want to you want me to start scraping these questions. Any other questions until I can address them in like a podcast?

1:15:14

Yeah, yeah. statute of limitations is two years, I think for this. So yeah, you have a couple years.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:15:20

Okay. Um, once again, I want to be clear, send any additional questions to info at Plan events.ca. I can get those questions addressed. For anybody that signed up for this event. later this evening, I will share the link of this recording to you to the podcast, whatever social and all that if you have any feedback would love it. This is, you know, from from my team, this is the first time we put together an event like this. And thank you Rami for being the first person to come on here. And yes, we will send us an email with links of this recording, as well as I will give a date on the upcoming podcast once I figure that out, to be honest and fine from the seat of my pants on this.

Rami 1:16:12

So I add one thing, sorry about the two years it’s two years from the date that they refused. Okay, they’re not two years today, you have to go back to whenever your first communication was about the alleged breach, alleged breach and authenticity they breached? I don’t know.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:16:27

Okay, awesome. So, um, I’ll be sending out the links and all that. I’ll also be sending out just a really simple survey to get feedback from folks to get your thoughts on when you thought about this event. And also thoughts on if there might be any other things that people who attended this might think is useful. It doesn’t have to be COVID related doesn’t have to be related to you know, law. Just anything wedding related. Okay. I think that’s it.

Rami 1:16:54

Yeah. Bye, guys. Thank you.

Kamran (PlanEvents.ca) 1:16:56

Thanks for your time, everybody. Thanks for attending.

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